Discussion about divisive issue - Hijacking. (Poll included)

[gbswales]

I would like to express an opinion about something which is one of the few things that upset an otherwise very friendly forum where people are obsessive about helping each other. This is the subject of "hijacking" which is a concept introduced as far as I can see by these forums and not Game Insight. I know that there were some negative comments about GI introducing competitive elements (Alliances and Space Missions) into a game which is more about fun and personal performance.
The fact however is that they have and I am not sure why we have to invent rules which aren't already there. From my point of view when I start what is clearly a "space race" I don't consider that I own First, or any other place, until I have actually put in enough points to guarantee me that place - it is easy to do the sums to work this out. I also don't think that starting a launch gives me any special privilege - after all I would only start one if there wasn't one available to join. (often I park my entry items without launching and wait until there is one to join - especially when I know that I don't have enough points to complete it myself. Shouldn't all launches be open, and places fair game until the points guarantee them? Anything else seems pretty much like "letting people win" which is something I rarely did with my children, except perhaps occasionally, to encourage them to become more competitive.

It also makes no sense logistically because unless you make your neighbour list exclusive to forum members there are others out there who know nothing about these rules, and I find it somewhat insulting of us to refer to them as "hijackers". If two or three people want to get together at the start of a launch to make sure they have control of the places that is fine - as long as they put in the points to match it but until they do, surely they are playing a risk strategy that may, or may not, work out.

Now for me the benefits this forum give far outweigh any negative aspects and I try to follow the rules just not to upset people - I have failed a couple of times. I know that there are others in this forum who feel, similar to me, that this "hijacking" thing is just a little bit "precious". I have just had a situation where a member took offence because they thought I was accusing them of hijackiing!

All I am suggesting is a debate about this - I am not "rebelling" against the status quo and maybe someone will convince of the benefits of these rules but I believe in challenge and healthy discussion. I would like to say up front that I am not being critical of any individuals here - you are all extremely helpful and, as far as I can tell, nice people.

I have created a quick poll which is open for a month - I have set it so people can view the results but not individual responses.

 

[Ten33go]

This, much like several other issues related to the forum and gameplay, is going to vastly depend on how you look at things in both a virtual world, and the real world.

Are there any rules in place regarding, "Hijacking"? No, there aren't. Mainly because it would be totally impossible to enforce.

However, much like in real life, there are people who are willing to play in a manner that follows their personal feelings about fair play, gamesmanship and basically, right from wrong. Then you have the other portion of the puzzle, which is that some people are just out for themselves, not caring about anyone, or anything, except their own particular goals.

When you launch a rocket, whether it be green, blue or red, the accepted practice is to not start one, unless you can finish it all by yourself if necessary. Most people will put half the points with one account, thereby assuring themselves of a first, second or third place finish.

Now, you have the option of opening a launch, not caring what position you are in, and letting people have at it. This is fine, and should be posted in the launch thread (Meaning, 1st taken, all other spots open, all spots open, freestyle, etc.). If nothing is posted similar to that in the launch thread, it's basically first come, first served.

One of the reasons people join this forum, is to be able to communicate with other players, which you obviously can't do with non forum members. This in itself should prevent any problems with launches within the forum, because we all have the capability to ask questions, and receive responses. So, theoretically, there should be no hijacking for this reason alone, but again, some people have their own agenda.

When you start a launch, you should have a plan. If it's an open launch you're doing for fun, then no worries. If you're trying to accomplish a goal (Collections, maps, etc.), having someone hijack it is counter productive. Obviously, non forum members are a different story, as you can't communicate with them.

Being a forum member carries with it some responsibility and ownership. Everyone knows right from wrong, but not all choose to live their life that way. With being able to communicate, and share, there shouldn't be any hijacking by forum members period. It's not something that you do when you are a family.

It's all about cooperation, respect, integrity and a sense of fair play. We all know how hard it is to collect space items, and no one likes to see their hard earned work go down the tubes, simply because someone doesn't want to take the time to send a quick PM to someone ASKING what the status is of a launch is. Especially if there is a QL, or multiple QL's in the launch.

Just my humble opinion on it, your mileage may vary. I guess the best way to term it is to use the old, but still accurate adage, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". In other words, if you want to play a certain way, with no thought of the others involved, don't be surprised if it comes back to haunt you, or alienates everyone to the point where you will have no friends.

 

[Agent_L]

I currently have about 120 items for red launch preparation but enough fuel to only make 15.
If someone wants to spend THEIR fuel on carrying ME - they're welcomed!

 

[Ten33go]

"Hitching" a ride is fine..."Hijacking" a ride is not...

 

[Agent_L]

When you start a launch, you should have a plan.

THIS!

 

[gbswales]

Thanks for the input at least we are having a discussion about it. I always prefer to join a launch rather than start one because I am usually looking to take 2nd or 3rd rather than 1st and I am not going for any maps. However recently I have been going all out with golden dice to try and take a few first places (I only do red flights) simply to accrue gold coins. I am not sure how anyone can make space flights regularly having enough items to finish always - unless they are spending greenies to buy loads of 360 point items. I buy the odd one from Dukes store because they almost never come up in normal collection. I am one of the people who almost always checks the forum for details of flights and do respect peoples stated preferences, I have to say that it doesn't always apply in reverse but I don't feel the need to accuse people of hijacking, they have just wanted first a little more badly than I did. The only time to my knowledge that I have "hijacked" was on the day that the forum was down for several hours and therefore I could not contact anyone. I had just collected a lot of high scoring items and the launch had two QL's on board (I had no way to know if it had been advertised or not) my experience over the previous week was that QL's usually want to launch as quickly as possible - I was therefore a little peeved at being accused of hijacking when I thought I was doing them a favour by finishing quickly - I didnt actually want to use up my 2 360 point items but thought that if I did I could launch another more quickly to give them a chance of using the QL more times. Another time because I made a point about my bad luck about being pushed from 3rd to 5th by a QL holder (though balancing it by saying the QL was good luck) it took me while to convince them that I wasnt accusing them of hijacking. Now these things were both resolved but would not have come about at all if we just treated space launches as competitive albeit with some friendly cooperation.

I don't really agree with you that you should always have enough points to finish a launch before starting one and would say that someone who manages to get placed in 6 or so launches a week is a skillful tactical player with a modicum of luck. You say there is no "rule" but there are certainly a few people on here who act as if it is.

I think it would be almost better if it was a rule and there is lots GI could do to improve this aspect of the game (though doubtful they ever will) For one thing it defies logic as far as the game is concerned for the low point items to take longer to renew than the high point items - they wont change it because it must encourage more people to use greenies to buy large numbers of high point items to give themselves an advantage. My view tends to be that it is GI who are the target and not other players. I am sure we are all sitting on mountains of solid fuel that we have no hope of using because most flights don't last long enough to contribute more than one or two.

I find myself on the fence about being unsure about what is the right or fair thing to do because in one sense it is a race and in others a collaboration which is why I am interested in hearing others views.

 

[Ten33go]

I am not sure how anyone can make space flights regularly having enough items to finish always - unless they are spending greenies to buy loads of 360 point items.

There could be many reasons for this. You stated one of them, which is that there are some people who spend a lot of money on this game. It is their choice, and there's nothing wrong with that, unless of course your family or responsibilities are suffering because of it.

There are also those that somehow manage to find ways of cheating. The third option, which quite a few people don't think about, is that many of the older players who have been around for at least 2 years, have had the opportunity to take advantage of things that you can only purchase nowadays. Planetariums and Training Centers to name a couple.

A lot of these older players also have Banks, Casinos and Mints. Some multiples of each. One of those buildings will net you about 372 greens one time a year. Multiply that by several, and you get anywhere from 644 - 1,800+ greens once a year. That's a lot of greens. Most of those player have also maxed out their cities / airports So they spend those greens on bonuses and other items that a majority of us only dream about.

Which in turn, provides them with much more space launch items, fuel, etc. than the normal player. They spent a lot of time earning it, and they can compete in weekly rankings, etc. with ease.

 

[Ten33go]

I am one of the people who almost always checks the forum for details of flights and do respect peoples stated preferences, I have to say that it doesn't always apply in reverse but I don't feel the need to accuse people of hijacking, they have just wanted first a little more badly than I did.

This is where how you live your life, and how you apply it to other things like a game come into play. It is great that you check, quite a few people don't. They prep, see a launch and just jump in without looking to see how many others are in it, or what the point totals look like. When you join someone else's launch, you see what points have been put in, and what places are currently being held. Also whether there is a QL involved or not.

What you have to remember is that most QL holders combine their efforts to achieve faster launches, and many of the bigger players will invite groups of people together to accomplish a goal for either themselves, or another smaller player. So these are more coordinated then normal launches. This isn't the case all of the time, but a majority of the time that's how it's run.

And you are correct about the reverse hijacking. It happens. But that's again why there are unofficial, or "unwritten" rules that people follow in order to work together. That's the main reason everyone joined the forum, so that communication, teamwork and fair play can be utilized to it's fullest potential.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that are from the "Me" decade, and aren't as good at following along with the program, only concerned about their own agenda. They will join a launch and immediately start loading items, no matter how many other people are in it, or what the goal of the flight was in the first place. it's just about them getting that first place.

 

[Ten33go]

Now these things were both resolved but would not have come about at all if we just treated space launches as competitive albeit with some friendly cooperation.

Okay. Now is where the differences of where you're from, or how you're raised enter into it. Everyone looks at things in their own unique way. There is some competitiveness involved with this game in weekly rankings and alliances. That's great. But again, you're talking about one specific area of the game that is designed to be competitive. It's all in good fun, if you treat it that way. Others get too highly involved and make it their sole purpose in life to be #1 at everything, no matter what the expanse to themselves or others.

Space launches are a different matter. It's not the same as normal flight operations. Space launches take gathering of many supplies and saving for quite a few people that don't have the Space Monuments, Alien Legacies, Rocket Gardens, etc. They can't afford to use Golden Dice and other bonuses. So when they start a launch, they are putting quite a bit of their gameplay, time and effort into it.

When most people start a launch, they do so with the intent to take first place for maps / rewards / coins / tokens. If in the process of loading up, someone who preps see's it, and hijacks it, that's not competition, it's theft. it is having your launch stolen by someone else who didn't know you spent 2 weeks saving items for this launch.

Now a freestyle launch? Go for it. Pour the points in. Get what you can. That's the whole purpose behind those. There is no hijacking of a freestyle launch.

 

[Ten33go]

I don't really agree with you that you should always have enough points to finish a launch before starting one and would say that someone who manages to get placed in 6 or so launches a week is a skillful tactical player with a modicum of luck. You say there is no "rule" but there are certainly a few people on here who act as if it is.

If you start a launch, you should have enough points to finish it, in case no one is around or can join with you. If you don't have the points to finish it, and no one is available to join it, you may lose the launch and all those hard earned launch items.

The only exception to the above is when you join one, you only have to have the amount of points needed to get whatever placement you're after, or just tagging along for the ride.

And as far as the "Rules", aside from forum rules, there aren't any. It's just a matter of having an entire planet full of people from all cultures, ethnicities, religions and walks of life, who are trying to accomplish the same goals, and making it work. And each of them is going to do it in their own wonderful, unique, wacky way. If we didn't have the unofficial / unwritten rules, we would be no different then before we joined the forum, and nothing would be accomplished.

Everyone would just do what they wanted, and the purpose of the forum would be lost. It still boils down to everyone having their own definition of fair play, respect, integrity, common sense and how they are willing to work as a team.

 

[Ten33go]

None of what I have responded too is directed at you, or anyone else in particular. It's just my way of looking at things based on my time in these forums, and paying attention to some of the things that have occurred, and are still occurring. It may differ from what you personally think, or others, so take it for what it's worth!

 

[gbswales]

I don't want you to think that I am wholly at odds with you or that I want to be selfish or greedy. The nice thing about space flights is that you can score maximum points with as little as 500 - 700 points if enough people join it - that is largely a matter of luck but it explains why I might be willing to risk some of my resources lost in a very occasional failed launch. I saw more failed launches in blue / green which is why I stick to red as I have not so far ever seen one fail - the rewards for even coming 6th or 7th make it worth pitching in to one that is low on resources. I am quite happy with the idea of trying to stick to a game plan that has been announced - particularly as I rarely have a game plan at all and it would be great if with all launches you knew before joining what level of points they have reached and who else is on board but many times recently I have committed the start resources only to find that there is a launch there that has not been announced in the forum. Should I message the initiator in every case and what if the person in first place is not the initiator. I think I need to get straight in my own head whether each space launch is a race to the post or a collaborative exercise.

For now it looks as if too few people are joining the discussion to get a wider opinion

 

[Ten33go]

If in doubt, PM the person who started the launch and ask. Doesn't hurt. And it shows that you are looking out for their interest, as well as your own and others. It's courtesy. Which is a lost art nowadays (Not directed at you, just meaning the world in general). That way, the purpose of the forum is fulfilled in it's full glory, by communicating. This is another lost art nowadays (Again, not specifically meaning you).

I just happened to notice this thread while on the main forum page. It's placed in an area that most people generally don't peruse, except for finding the correct weekly trading thread. But, I have no doubt that you will receive other opinions on the matter, and they are going to vary by each person.

Like I mentioned in my posts, what I think isn't necessarily the "correct" or "incorrect" way of looking at things, just my own personal opinion based on observation of forum activities.

Happy to have participated, and like I also mentioned earlier, take it for what it's worth. This hasn't been an argument, it's been a discussion, which, amazingly enough, is part of the communication process, the reason the forum exists and how everyone learns about each other, situations and how things generally operate in a place full of great people from all over the place. No hard feelings or anything of the sort on this end.

 

[drivefast99]

People tend to get upset when others don't follow the "rules" they have made. My game, my rules. Unfortunately, everyone don't play with the same "rules".

I knew a player that billed himself as the "space pirate" and loved hijacking launches. It was his thing.
Personally, my rule is... if you start a launch I won't pass you intentionally (sometimes my math isn't too good) but all other spots are free for the taking.

My launches are always open, after-all, it's just a stupid game. I'm going to get upset over something a lot more important.
If I want 1st, I start a launch then put in enough points to guarantee 1st (that means at least 1681 points for red).

The main issue is if I don't like the way you play, I can't de-friend you. Sure I can delete you from my neighbor list but I'm still on your neighbor list and you can still join my launches. Road404 should make it so I can either block you or if I delete you, I am no longer on your list either.

Yes - if you steal your launch, you are a hijacker.

 

[drivefast99]

I just happened to notice this thread while on the main forum page. It's placed in an area that most people generally don't peruse,

I always click on the "New Post" button at the top of the forum and read the titles. That way I don't usually miss an important post.

 

[gbswales]

As an example early this morning I committed start resources and saw that two of my neighbours had open red launches - I checked the forum and, as neither were listed in the space launch forum, I sent IM's to both - to be fair one replied in a few mintutes but when I went back in to join that launch BOTH the launches I had seen were no longer there. Now as it occured one of them launched again about 15 mintues later (so must have had 2 QL's) and I joined that and got a place which was all I wanted, in fact a QL joined so I was able to fly again 2 hours or so later and was joined by another two QL's so that particular worked out fine for me. However if there had been no QL's around then I would have lost the the chance to join a launch and as it was the early hours, may have had to wait until after I woke up again.
I have decided that in future I will join what I see straight away, add some items and then IM the owner if there is a need to.
The consensus thus far seems to be to keep the "hijacking" principle so unless that changes significantly I have no intention of rocking the boat or spoiling relationships - as one of you rightly say it is only a game. I think the real problem here is the stupid way that GI apply the timers because unless you have about 3 or 4 - 360 point items it can take quite a while to add the required 1501 points needed for first place (most people say 1600 but surely if you have more than 1500 which is 50% you cannot be beaten) the poll is set to expire after a month anyway

 

[Wasted Eagle]

most people say 1600 but surely if you have more than 1500 which is 50% you cannot be beaten

Yes you can. The points mechanism doesn't work with a ceiling.

e.g. When you have first with a 'safe' 1600 in, I load up to 1398 and end with a 360 point PEB, I will pass your first and end up with 1758. Thus exceeding the 3000 point mark and hijacking your 'safe' launch as a result.

The points are always added in full and don't necessarily stop at the maximum of 1600, 2000 or 3000. Go figure...

That's why around 1700 is the number for red, unless you settle points and places first with your co-launchers...

Update: I recently finished a red launch with fixed places and points: I got first with little over 600 points (out of 3000!!!) due to generous neighbours... Forum power!

 

[Joe7]

I voted the second option :"I don't think it is necessary and that all places should be open until the points guarantee it."

 

[Wasted Eagle]

That's one of the issues here, @Joe7 and @gbswales .

...until the points guarantee it.

For non-forum launches there is no other way. Not so for forum launches.

I don't think it's fair to the starter who normally has a goal in mind before opening a launch. It's not because one builds points faster, one is entitled to more... When I start a launch and slowly want to build points to ensure 1st, I have the right to do so and should be given the chance to do so even before my points guarantee it...

Following the launch thread, posting or using PM are good ways to make arrangements.
Don't forget to learn and adapt as you play. My behaviour in launches varies greatly depending on the company I'm in...

Use the power of the forum, where clear communication, common sense and common courtesy are key...

 

[gbswales]

Surely for this to work fairly all forum users should announce their launch in the Forum and make their intentions known - I have never started a launch without posting in the forum - I nearly always state my ambition (I think that is more appropriate than intention) whether it be to gain first or another place or simply to get the mission launched - ie open launch. From what I have observed only about half the forum launches get posted in the forum